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Comments for Looking at stuff through the eyes of a mathematician – Gary Cornell's blog https://garycornell.com - with an occasional random thought on random topics. All material is owned and copyrighted © by Gary Cornell but may be freely quoted Sat, 13 Jan 2024 19:24:27 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.4 Comment on The Semaglutide (Wegovy) Clinical Trial: Or How headline numbers mess with both Doctors and Patients minds by admn https://garycornell.com/2024/01/09/the-semaglutide-wegovy-clinical-trial-or-how-headline-numbers-mess-with-both-doctors-and-patients-minds/#comment-639 Sat, 13 Jan 2024 19:24:27 +0000 https://garycornell.com/?p=709#comment-639 In reply to Benji Mathew.

Yes the absolute risk reduction would “only” be 8% but it doesn’t change the fact that ARR is a better measure than RRR. RRR which tells you nothing without knowing how prevalent the disease is in the untreated group – in which case you can recover ARR from the combination of prevalence and RRR. After all, if you have an extremely rare disease, knowing you have a 99%, RRR still doesn’t tell you what you want to know.

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Comment on The Semaglutide (Wegovy) Clinical Trial: Or How headline numbers mess with both Doctors and Patients minds by Benji Mathew https://garycornell.com/2024/01/09/the-semaglutide-wegovy-clinical-trial-or-how-headline-numbers-mess-with-both-doctors-and-patients-minds/#comment-638 Sat, 13 Jan 2024 19:00:57 +0000 https://garycornell.com/?p=709#comment-638 Your framing of relative risk is unfair. If heart disease was completely cured in the semaglutide group and cardiovascular events went to zero that would obviously be game-changer. But the absolute risk reduction would only be 8%. Relative risk is more relevant and so it’s justifiably highlighted more.

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Comment on The Semaglutide (Wegovy) Clinical Trial: Or How headline numbers mess with both Doctors and Patients minds by The economics of semaglutide - Marginal REVOLUTION https://garycornell.com/2024/01/09/the-semaglutide-wegovy-clinical-trial-or-how-headline-numbers-mess-with-both-doctors-and-patients-minds/#comment-634 Sat, 13 Jan 2024 10:47:10 +0000 https://garycornell.com/?p=709#comment-634 […] is more from Gary Cornell, mostly about the degree of […]

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Comment on Another slate article on Sensitivity and Specificity by Weekend Editor https://garycornell.com/2022/01/15/another-slate-article-on-sensitivity-and-specificity/#comment-601 Fri, 28 Jan 2022 00:06:35 +0000 https://garycornell.com/?p=694#comment-601 In your example of testing a 1-in-1000 frequency disease (0.1% true positive rate) with a 1-in-100 (1%) FPR is a good one:

(1) True, if you test 1000 people you get 1 true positive and 10 false positives, for 11 total positives. The 10 false positives dwarf the single true positive.

(2) But, if you’re in the pool of people who test positive, you’re now 1/11 = 9.1% chance of having the disease, vs 0.1% in the general population. So the test has enriched the pool of sick people over the general population by about 100-fold, which is really good information in the real world.

This is why when you get a positive test, your doc orders another test of a different kind, to winnow out the false positives. Get a couple positives in a row from different kinds of tests, and your doc can be pretty sure you’ve got the disease.

Our present problem is people look at test like oracles, which Give The Answer immediately.

Even the oracles were confusing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibis_redibis_nunquam_per_bella_peribis).

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Comment on My latest Slate article by admn https://garycornell.com/2021/12/18/my-latest-slate-article/#comment-600 Sat, 15 Jan 2022 17:54:08 +0000 https://garycornell.com/?p=691#comment-600 In reply to NS.

A test with no false positives has 100% positive predictive value. 
PPV is defined as TP/(TP +FP)If FP = 0, then PPV is 1
(It is very unusual I admit for a test to have no false positives…)
I wanted to add a discussion of PPV and NPV but they said no. It will hopefully be in another article.

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Comment on My latest Slate article by NS https://garycornell.com/2021/12/18/my-latest-slate-article/#comment-599 Sat, 15 Jan 2022 16:49:17 +0000 https://garycornell.com/?p=691#comment-599 You need to correct that article ASAP. You literally reversed sensitivity and specificity. It is deeply misleading, in fact rapid tests have a much better negative predictive value than positive predictive value.

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Comment on The Base Rate Fallacy: X% of new Covid cases are among the vaccinated is a BS statement by admn https://garycornell.com/2021/07/28/the-base-rate-fallacy-x-of-new-covid-cases-are-among-the-vaccinated-is-a-bs-statement/#comment-594 Thu, 05 Aug 2021 13:38:30 +0000 https://garycornell.com/?p=682#comment-594 In reply to MLJ.

The base rate fallacy comes up all the time and it’s never good. Every few years they survey doctors about what would they do if a patient had a positive result on an accurate disease if the disease is rare. The results are always scary.

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Comment on The Base Rate Fallacy: X% of new Covid cases are among the vaccinated is a BS statement by MLJ https://garycornell.com/2021/07/28/the-base-rate-fallacy-x-of-new-covid-cases-are-among-the-vaccinated-is-a-bs-statement/#comment-591 Thu, 05 Aug 2021 09:42:22 +0000 https://garycornell.com/?p=682#comment-591 Ugh. Articles like these are reckless and represent everything that’s wrong with American bioinformatics, let alone overall US communications around Covid.

There’s nothing wrong with stating a fact: that 75% of the infected were vaccinated. But things go south in a hurry when an enforced behavioral intent gets attached to it.

Yes, Americans can’t do stats (or math). But framing the facts to intentional outcomes, such as higher vaccination rates, are deceptive and (often wrongly) prescriptive. So we get framing to encourage vaccinations obscuring the truth of how vaccinations do not prevent infection or spread. BOTH are important details.

Hence we get the CDC lifting mask mandates a month ago among “Freedom Day” declarations in part because they worried about reducing vaccination incentives: manipulative intentions over facts. Yet we knew the UK and India were raging with Delta and it was only a matter of time.

But by discouraging masking, the CDC encouraged the false belief that vaccines were a magic amulet that prevented infection or transmission and the vaccinated could simply pretend like COVID no longer existed … resulting in unnecessary infections and deaths.

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Comment on The Base Rate Fallacy: X% of new Covid cases are among the vaccinated is a BS statement by admn https://garycornell.com/2021/07/28/the-base-rate-fallacy-x-of-new-covid-cases-are-among-the-vaccinated-is-a-bs-statement/#comment-589 Wed, 04 Aug 2021 23:20:41 +0000 https://garycornell.com/?p=682#comment-589 In reply to TJ.

I think you are missing the point of using an extreme example, it is to show the base rate fallacy at its starkest i.e that you have to choose the right denominator. Yes, a more realistic scenario might be something like 60% vaccinated and 20% of the cases among the vaccinated and 80% of the cases among the unvaccinated. You could then do the calculation and see the same mistake but the arithmetic would be a bit more painful. The key issue is that any statement that says “X% of the reported cases are among the vaccinated” (or “among the unvaccinated” for that matter) is falling victim to the base rate fallacy, such statements are useless and provide no good information absent knowing how many people are in each group, putting them as the lead in an article is just plain bad, that was the point of the article.

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Comment on The Base Rate Fallacy: X% of new Covid cases are among the vaccinated is a BS statement by TJ https://garycornell.com/2021/07/28/the-base-rate-fallacy-x-of-new-covid-cases-are-among-the-vaccinated-is-a-bs-statement/#comment-588 Wed, 04 Aug 2021 23:12:38 +0000 https://garycornell.com/?p=682#comment-588 Also here from slate. You criticize using misleading numbers to confuse, but your “extreme” hypo does that yourself. Yes in a population where 99% are vaccinated, 75% of sick people coming from the vaccinated group actually shows the vaccine is working quite well. But in a population where 80% are vaccinated, 75% of sick people coming from the vaccinated group would show a vaccine that was only slightly effective (at a population vaccination rate of 75%, which is much higher than the national average right now, it shows a vaccine that is completely ineffective). I think most people quite reasonably think that the real number is closer to 80% than 99%, and at that point confidently asserting that they should “absolutely not” be worried is quite overstated. It does all depend on the vaccination rate in the population, and we have good reason to think it is significantly higher than the national average, but raising it to an unrealistically high 99% offers false assurance.

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